Interview with Denise Segler

This interview shares the personal story of an expat who came to the Netherlands on a DAFT visa and was not directly supported by All About Expats. They may have been able to use some of our services, such as the Orientation Year (Zoekjaar), Relocation Service, the 30% ruling, or Employment & Career Tools (ECT). This article is intended for informational purposes only and does not replace personal advice. For more information about our services, please feel free to contact us.

When Denise moved to the Netherlands in November 2024, she embarked not only on a new chapter in her career but also on an entirely new life. Originally from the area just outside Chicago, she had spent nearly nineteen years living in Seattle. Her dream of living in Europe began at the age of eighteen, during a short trip to London and Paris. “I knew even then: someday I would live in Europe. I didn’t care where or for how long; I just wanted that experience.”

At the beginning of 2023, Denise received a medical diagnosis that severely disrupted her sleep. Just two weeks later, her entire team at Amazon was laid off. “It felt like the rug was pulled out from under me,” she says. “But at the same time, it was the first moment in my adult life that I was completely free. I had been divorced after more than twenty years of an unhappy marriage, my children were grown, and suddenly I could ask myself: what do I actually want?” For years, Denise had dreamed of living in Europe. Ireland was one possibility, but she would have needed to find an employer willing to sponsor her first. With the DAFT visa, she could take control of the process herself. “I wanted to decide when I left, not wait for someone to hire me.”

Now in her early fifties, Denise knows that many people make such a move earlier in life. “Sometimes people ask, ‘Isn’t that scary, at your age?’ And I think, this is exactly the right time. My children are grown. I’ve built a career. I know who I am. If I don’t do it now, when will I?” She believes this stage of life actually works in her favor. “I’m emotionally more stable than I was at twenty. I don’t panic as quickly. I can handle uncertainty. That makes a move like this more manageable.” That combination of uncertainty and freedom opened her mind in ways she hadn’t expected. “Normally, I would have said: that’s too risky, too crazy, too complicated. But for a while, those little voices just weren’t there.”

Initially, she focused on Ireland. Eventually, though, she discovered the Dutch American Friendship Treaty (DAFT), a visa program designed specifically for American entrepreneurs.

“I thought, they can always say no in the Netherlands. But they said yes.” She submitted her application in July 2024, received approval in August, and on November 4, 2024, one day before the U.S. presidential election, she boarded a plane to the Netherlands. For Denise, the Netherlands is both an experiment and an opportunity. The DAFT visa gives her two years to discover whether this could become her new home, with the option to stay longer.

“It’s exciting, sometimes lonely, sometimes overwhelming. But it’s also exactly what I wanted: an adventure.” Before leaving, Denise had to drastically downsize. In the U.S., she had been living in an RV to avoid the high rents around Seattle. “I gave things away, put a lot into storage, and left some belongings with family. My car and RV are still in storage. I arrived here with three suitcases, my guitar, and a backpack. That’s all I could physically carry.” Fortunately, the climate was not a major adjustment. Seattle and the Netherlands, she discovered, are surprisingly similar when it comes to the weather.

The first weeks in the Netherlands were overwhelming. Denise stayed in an Airbnb and quickly discovered what it truly means not to speak the language. “Rationally, you know that many Dutch people speak English,” she says. “But it feels very different when you suddenly can’t read anything in the supermarket. I stood there thinking, I just want to buy garlic powder, but I don’t recognize a single word.”

She quickly learned basic phrases like “Dank je wel” and “Spreekt u Engels?”, yet she still felt isolated in the beginning. “Sometimes I cried. You don’t know anyone, you don’t speak the language. But I kept reminding myself: this isn’t a prison sentence, it’s an adventure.”

Determined to meet people, she began attending tech meetups in Amsterdam and joined open mic groups for musicians, music has long been one of her passions.

She even used Tinder as a way to connect. “Maybe not the most conventional method,” she laughs, “but it worked. You meet people, and they explain things to you, like why some scooters have blue license plates and others have yellow ones.” What makes her experience unique is that she moved alone. “When you come with a partner, you can look at each other and think, what have we done? When you’re alone, you have to talk yourself through it.”

There were moments that hit her harder than she expected. “The silence can suddenly feel very loud,” she says. “In Seattle, I had my routines, my friends, my familiar places. Here, I had to rebuild everything from scratch. Even small things; like knowing where your favorite shop is, normally give you a sense of stability. I didn’t have that here.” In Seattle, there had always been background noise, friends dropping by, children calling, colleagues, coffee shops where she was a regular. In the Netherlands, especially in the evenings, it was sometimes simply… quiet.

“During the day, you’re busy. You have things to arrange: registering with the municipality, opening a bank account, setting up your business, figuring out how health insurance works. That keeps you focused. But at night, when you’re sitting in temporary housing and there’s no one to turn to and say, ‘What a strange day this was,’ you feel it.” She emphasizes that it wasn’t constant sadness, but more like waves.

“One moment I felt powerful, look at me doing this. And a few hours later I thought, what have I done to myself? I think that’s completely normal when you take such a big step.”

What helped her most was consciously accepting that discomfort is part of growth. “I told myself: you didn’t choose this because it would be comfortable. You chose it because you wanted to grow. And growth, by definition, is uncomfortable.” For Denise, it’s the small moments that show how far she has already come. “The first time I made an appointment in Dutch by myself felt like a huge victory. Or the first time I biked home without navigation. Those things may seem small to others, but to me they meant: I’m starting to belong here.”

Perhaps what surprised her most is how deeply immigration touches identity. “In Seattle, I was ‘Denise, with that career, that history, that network.’ Here, I’m just Denise, without context. That’s liberating, but it’s also vulnerable.” She had to redefine herself. “Who am I when no one knows my background? Who am I without my old titles, without my social circle? Those are bigger questions than you realize beforehand.” Yet she sees it as an opportunity. “You get the chance to consciously choose who you want to be. You don’t have to automatically fall back into old patterns.”

In January 2025, Denise found an apartment in Heemstede, just south of Haarlem. The process turned out to be far more intense than she had expected. “I quickly heard the same thing everywhere: you need a real estate agent. Everyone wants to live in the Randstad, and it’s incredibly competitive.” Even with an agent, there were no guarantees. She had to bid above the asking price and pay six months’ rent upfront, plus one month’s agent fee. “That meant paying nine months of rent all at once. I didn’t see that coming. But I understood it, I didn’t have a rental history here yet.”

Although she had thoroughly prepared for the DAFT visa and all the official procedures, many practical realities only became clear once she was living in the Netherlands. “You can read a lot online about immigration, but daily life is different. How do you build credit here? How do you rent without a Dutch employer’s statement? What do landlords expect? Those are things you only learn when you’re actually in it.” The housing process, in particular, felt overwhelming. “I was told that without an agent, I would barely stand a chance. And even with one, I still had to overbid. That was new to me. The housing market in Seattle was crazy too, but this felt different, more competitive, more formal.” When she finally secured the apartment, it felt like a turning point. “That was the moment it truly started to feel like: I live here. Not temporary. Not a trial run. Just, this is my place.”

Does the Netherlands feel like home? She pauses when asked that question. “It doesn’t feel the way Seattle did after nineteen years. But it also doesn’t feel temporary anymore. It’s somewhere in between. And maybe that’s okay. Home can grow.” She smiles. “I gave myself two years to seriously try this adventure. What happens after that, I’ll see. But one thing I know for sure: I don’t regret doing it.”

When Denise traveled back to Chicago in December to visit her parents, something unexpected happened. “It was the first time in years I had been back to the area where I grew up,” Denise recalls. “It felt very familiar. But when I heard Dutch again on the plane after a week away, I almost cried. I realized how much I had missed it.” She laughs softly. “It’s strange, but it’s true, I feel at home in both places.”

The DAFT visa requires American applicants to work as self-employed entrepreneurs and to maintain at least €4,500 in a Dutch business bank account. The permit is valid for two years and can be renewed. Denise had already established a freelance business in the United States, but she officially registered her Dutch company in early 2025. Even so, starting over in a new country felt very different from continuing her work back home. In March, she joined a business network for entrepreneurs. “That was a turning point,” she says. “I met other business owners, asked questions, and through word of mouth I landed my first assignment.”

As a self-employed professional, she quickly realized that building trust takes time. “In the U.S., I had a network, references, a reputation. Here, you start from zero. People don’t know you. You have to prove yourself all over again.” She found that confronting, but also refreshing. “It forces you to clearly articulate your value. What exactly do I offer? Why should companies hire me? I might not have developed that level of sharpness if I had stayed somewhere everything was already comfortable.” Signing her first contract in the Netherlands felt like more than just a business milestone. “When I signed that first agreement, it felt like confirmation: this can actually work. Not just emotionally, but practically.”

Freelancing has taught Denise another important lesson as well: networking is everything. “My understanding is that Dutch companies prefer referrals,” she explains. “They’d rather hire someone who comes recommended than a complete stranger.” She actively builds connections, joins WhatsApp groups, and enjoys introducing people to opportunities, even when there’s nothing in it for her. “If I know someone who’s a great fit for a job, I’ll connect them. I genuinely love doing that.” In the Netherlands, she has discovered, relationships open doors just as much as résumés do, and sometimes even more.

Denise’s professional background is firmly rooted in technology. She spent five and a half years at Amazon, working on one of the Amazon Alexa teams. “I stepped into a project that was already running,” she explains. “I had to learn everything on the fly.” Her role focused on managing and coordinating advertising-related projects connected to Alexa-enabled devices. Whenever new products or partnerships were launched, Denise and her team were responsible for testing how the devices responded. “If you said a certain phrase to an Alexa device, what would it do? Would it promote the new product? Would it trigger what it was supposed to?” she says.

Over time, she became the central point of contact for her team assigning tests, coordinating results, and reporting findings back to stakeholders. In addition, she served as a team trainer; “I taught the fundamentals of the basics of the job to new hires. I didn’t teach them project management.” Today, Denise’s work looks different, but at its core it still revolves around projects, timelines, and coordination. Her current focus is a webinar and accompanying booklet for Americans who want to move to the Netherlands under the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (DAFT) visa.

The initiative follows clearly defined phases: drafting, planning, launching, and hosting Q&A sessions. “It’s not tech-based,” she says, “but it’s still project management. There’s still a timeline. There are still phases. It’s just focused on people.” That shift toward people is no coincidence. In addition to her tech background, Denise earned a certification in change management and completed formal classroom training in project management. She has studied PRINCE2 and plans to take the exams. That certification significantly shaped her perspective. “Change management is about people,” she explains. “I’ve been on projects that were managed well, where you felt supported. And I’ve also been on projects where it was just, ‘We don’t care: just get it done.’ I don’t want to be that kind of leader.”

She describes herself as wanting to be a ‘good shepherd’, someone who guides and supports people rather than overwhelming or abandoning them. Denise specializes in project management within the technology and training sectors. “Project management means making sure a project runs smoothly from start to finish,” she explains. “I oversee planning, budgets, and communication, and I ensure that everyone understands their role.” In practical terms, her work includes:

Her first Dutch client came through her network. “Someone was asked whether they could deliver a project management training,” she says. “They couldn’t, but they knew me. And that’s how it started.”

Although Denise has worked with a couple of Dutch based businesses. She is struggling to break into the Dutch corporate world because they expect fluent Dutch. Breaking into larger Dutch companies has proven more difficult than she expected, largely because of language requirements. “Recruiters reach out,” she says, “but when I ask if English is okay, they often tell me the client needs Dutch.” Project management and change management skills are in demand, she explains. But in practice, fluency in Dutch frequently makes the difference. When she first arrived, she assumed she could rely mostly on English. Over time, she realized that many roles, especially within larger or more traditional organizations, require native or near-native Dutch proficiency. Still, she hasn’t given up.

When Denise first landed in the Netherlands, she knew only six Dutch words. Today, she describes herself, with a smile, as being “at least at A-1 level, since Babbel app tells me I am at” She approaches language learning with creativity and persistence. She uses the Babbel app, keeps handwritten vocabulary lists, and even created Dutch vocabulary sheets for her adult child when they came to visit, including practical words found on food packaging and common greetings for bus drivers. “I didn’t realize how much I’d learned until I saw pages and pages of vocabulary written down,” she says.

She also watches children’s television shows and Dutch news broadcasts to train her ear. “I might not understand everything,” she admits, “but at least I’m getting used to hearing the rhythm and the sounds.” For a long time, she postponed formal classes because of the cost and the time commitment. But she remained determined to improve.

Now, more than a year later, she still doesn’t speak fluent Dutch, but she manages well in daily life. “I can order coffee, ask for the bill, have simple conversations. It’s not perfect, but I’m learning.” If she could do one thing differently, she says, she would have started learning Dutch earlier. “I thought, everyone speaks English, it’ll be fine. But language is more than communication. It’s access to nuance, to humor, to real connection.” She is still using Babbel and not taking formal lessons. “I’m not fluent yet,” she says, “but with every new sentence, I feel the distance getting smaller.”

Although Denise has not yet fully experienced Dutch corporate work culture from the inside, she has already noticed several cultural differences that stand out. One of the most striking is work–life balance.

“In the U.S., staying late can feel expected,” she says. “Here, if you can’t finish your work within your allotted time, that’s seen as the issue. When work is done, you go live your life.” She finds that refreshing. In the United States, being busy often feels like a status symbol, proof of ambition and importance. In the Netherlands, she has observed that working part-time or intentionally setting aside time for family and hobbies is entirely normal. “There isn’t that same hustle culture,” she explains. “In the U.S., it can feel like someone is always breathing down your neck. Here, when work is done, you’re done.”

Another positive surprise has been the directness of Dutch communication. “Americans sometimes circle around a point,” she says. “The Dutch are just clear. At first, I had to adjust to that. But now I really appreciate it. You always know where you stand.” She laughs when she admits that she herself has been described as blunt. “So in a way, I fit right in.” At first, though, some of the cultural nuances caught her off guard, especially in everyday interactions. “In the U.S., customer service is often extremely friendly, sometimes almost exaggerated,” she explains. “Here, it’s more efficient. Not unfriendly, just direct. In the beginning, I sometimes misinterpreted that. I’d think, did I do something wrong? But no, that’s just how communication works here.” Dutch honesty also required an adjustment. “If someone here disagrees with you, they’ll tell you immediately. In the U.S., someone might say, ‘That’s interesting,’ when they actually mean it’s a terrible idea.” Now, she sees the value in that clarity. “It saves energy. You don’t have to guess what someone really thinks.”

Perhaps the most profound difference she feels, however, is safety. “I feel safer here in the Netherlands,” she says quietly. “I don’t worry about hearing gunshots. That changes how you move through the world.” Public transportation is another contrast she appreciates. In much of the United States, especially outside major cities, driving is the only practical option. In the Netherlands, trains, buses, and cycling infrastructure make daily life feel more connected and accessible. Denise admires the Dutch multi-party political system, which requires cooperation among different groups. “I think people in the U.S. could learn a lot about working together despite differing viewpoints,” she says. “Here, political parties are forced to collaborate. I wish we had more of that back home. I think we’ve forgotten how to work together when we disagree.”

When asked what the Dutch might adopt from American culture, she pauses for a long moment. Eventually, she mentions her love of science and space exploration. Growing up in the U.S., missions led by organizations like NASA, including programs such as Artemis program, were widely discussed and celebrated. “In the U.S., space exploration feels very present in public life,” she says. “Here, I notice it less.” Beyond that, she struggles to name anything specific she would export across the Atlantic. “It’s not that one country is better or worse,” she clarifies. “It’s just different. And I like that it’s different. We’re not meant to be the same.”

Denise explains that settling into a new country also means building new connections. Through hobbies, social events, and even niche interests, she has begun forming friendships. “I don’t have any close Dutch friends yet,” she says, “but I’m starting to make those connections.” She emphasizes that finding the right spaces to meet people, especially ones that match her interests and age group, has been crucial.

One of her favorite memories captures the warmth she has found in the Netherlands. She attended an 80s DJ party alone, and left with ten new friends. “A woman came up to me and asked who I was with. When I said I was alone, she said, ‘Oh no, you’re coming with us.’” By the end of the evening, she had been welcomed into a group of married couples, dancing and chatting in both English and Dutch, feeling unexpectedly at home. “It was so kind,” she says. “I don’t know if that would happen as easily in the U.S.”

After about fifteen months in the Netherlands, Denise has continued to form connections through both business networking and shared hobbies. She attends Irish music nights, joins social events for people over 50, and has even found Dungeons & Dragons groups. As someone who describes herself as more introverted than extroverted, socializing requires energy. “I can be outgoing, but then I need to go home and recharge.” She deliberately chooses environments where conversation flows naturally rather than simply going out for drinks. English-speaking pubs, hobby groups, open mic nights, these are spaces where she can connect comfortably. “I don’t want everyone to switch to English just for me,” she explains. “But if we’re playing Dungeons & Dragons, I do need to know what’s happening.”

Materially, Denise doesn’t miss much. The one thing she regrets leaving behind is a thick folder of medical records she removed from her suitcase to save space. “I’m not sure how I’ll get that here now,” she laughs. What she misses most isn’t objects, it’s people. Her son still lives in the U.S., while her younger, non-binary child is currently in Australia. They visited her in the Netherlands before moving abroad themselves. “They said, ‘Cool mom, that’s not a bad idea. I’ll do something similar,’” she says proudly. Her sister hopes to visit during tulip season, and Denise frequently sends her links to Dutch events and festivals, gently tempting her with reasons to come.

When asked whether Dutch food felt very different from what Denise grew up with, Denise smiles. “Not really,” she says. Having grown up near major U.S. cities, she was already used to a wide variety of international cuisines. So arriving in the Netherlands and encountering not only traditional Dutch dishes but also Indonesian, Surinamese, and Indian food didn’t come as a shock.

Of course, she was curious to try classic Dutch meals. During her first short stay her host offered to cook dinner for a small extra fee, and Denise jumped at the opportunity. “I asked her, ‘What’s Dutch food?’” she recalls. That’s how she tried stamppot for the first time. “She made it, and I was like, mashed potatoes and bacon? I’m in!”

Denise also sampled stroopwafels, which she found tasty but a little sweeter than expected, and even tried haring. “It wasn’t bad,” she laughs. “Not my favorite, but not bad.” If she has to name a favorite Dutch-style comfort food, she still lands on stamppot, though she admits she might change her mind later. At home, Denise cooks much as she did in the U.S., though she’s noticed a few small shifts. She eats more tuna now, and she’s pleased to find that peanut butter, so common in America, is also popular in the Netherlands. “In some European countries they’re like, ‘What is this?’” she jokes. “So I was happy to find it here.” She enjoys exploring local produce and small specialty shops, including international grocery stores often referred to as toko’s. There, she browses unfamiliar fruits and vegetables, sometimes experimenting, and sometimes deciding a recipe might be too ambitious. “If I can imagine how to cook it, I’ll try it,” she says. “If not, I’ll leave it on the shelf.”

The idea for Denise’s current project developed naturally. After moving to the Netherlands and starting her business, she was interviewed by USA Today and Business Insider about relocating abroad and building a new life as an entrepreneur. Once those articles were published, something unexpected happened: Americans began reaching out to her directly. “People found my website and emailed me asking, ‘How did you do this?’” she recalls.

Although there are many online resources explaining how to apply for a visa, Denise quickly realized that something was missing; honest practical guidance about what happens after you arrive. “Nobody talks about the overwhelm,” she says. “Nobody tells you that you need a DigiD just to log into basic government systems. Nobody clearly explains the housing shortage, that you need an apartment to get your BSN, but you need a BSN to open a bank account.”

It’s that in-between space, the gap between official instructions and lived reality, that inspired her to create something of her own. Her project combines structured, step-by-step information with personal experience. She shares realistic timelines, practical checklists, and the lessons she learned the hard way. “I didn’t have anyone to ask,” she says. “So I’d like to be that person for someone else.” For Denise, it’s not just about visas or paperwork. It’s about reducing the emotional shock of starting over in a new country, about helping others feel a little less alone in the process she once had to navigate by herself.

When asked whether she sees herself staying in the Netherlands permanently, Denise is candid. “I promised myself two years. That’s the duration of my first visa. After that, I’ll decide again. Maybe I’ll stay. Maybe I’ll live somewhere else in Europe. Maybe I’ll eventually return. But this period, no one can take it away from me.” She doesn’t focus on the long term, but instead takes life in phases. “For now, this is my life. And that’s enough.”

What advice would she give to other Americans, or really anyone, who dreams of moving abroad? “Don’t wait for everything to feel perfect. That moment never comes. There will always be a reason to stay where you are. But if the idea keeps coming back in your head, maybe you need to listen.” She emphasizes, however, that preparation is key. “Make sure your finances are in order. Understand the visa rules thoroughly. And build a network as soon as you arrive. That really makes a difference.”

Do you have a story you’d like to share about moving to, working in, or living in the Netherlands?